Now that the tax cuts are extended

[student4ever]

Will the GOP stop blocking the 9/11 first responders health care bill or will they find another reason to say no?

[thevoice]

Right now, and for the past 2 years, the Dems have had the votes to pass ANYTHING they want. It's not the GOP that is hiolding things up. It's the centrists in the Democratic Party that are voting against the Dem agenda. Pelosi, and more accurately Reid, don't have enough balls to twist arms and get the votes they need. With the overwhelming majorities in both houses plus the White House, I'm shocked that more stuff didn't get passed the last 2 years. The ineffective leadership has halted the agenda, not the GOP. A strong leader would have done what was necessary to pass what the President wants. Too bad that the Dems decided Reid and Pelosi were those people.

And for the record, the bill should be passed.

[student4ever]

Right now, and for the past 2 years, the Dems have had the votes to pass ANYTHING they want. It's not the GOP that is hiolding things up. It's the centrists in the Democratic Party that are voting against the Dem agenda. Pelosi, and more accurately Reid, don't have enough balls to twist arms and get the votes they need. With the overwhelming majorities in both houses plus the White House, I'm shocked that more stuff didn't get passed the last 2 years. The ineffective leadership has halted the agenda, not the GOP. A strong leader would have done what was necessary to pass what the President wants. Too bad that the Dems decided Reid and Pelosi were those people.

And for the record, the bill should be passed.

I was unaware that the dems had 60 votes to end the filibuster and open debate on the 9/11 first responders bill. That's right, they don't. The dems have enough votes to pass anything that doesn't get filibustered. The way the current senate works is that every bill gets filibustered and you need 60. It happens on both sides. Now, can you explain why the 9/11 first responders' health care bill got filibustered and why no republicans voted for cloture?

[BustNChops]

Right now, and for the past 2 years, the Dems have had the votes to pass ANYTHING they want. It's not the GOP that is hiolding things up. It's the centrists in the Democratic Party that are voting against the Dem agenda. Pelosi, and more accurately Reid, don't have enough balls to twist arms and get the votes they need. With the overwhelming majorities in both houses plus the White House, I'm shocked that more stuff didn't get passed the last 2 years. The ineffective leadership has halted the agenda, not the GOP. A strong leader would have done what was necessary to pass what the President wants. Too bad that the Dems decided Reid and Pelosi were those people.

And for the record, the bill should be passed.

I don't know enough about the bill to say whether it should or should not be passed. The name of it implies it should and the the soundbites I have heard sound like it should. The problem and the question on the bill probably lies deeper in the B.S. that was attached to it.

What should have been at focus the past 2-months is a budget! How absurd is it that this did not get passed, let alone any appropriation bills?


Indeed, some Democratic insiders suspect that leaders will skip the budget process altogether this year — a way to avoid the political unpleasantness of voting on spending, deficits and taxes in an election year — or simply go through a few of the motions, without any real effort to complete the work.

Congress has failed to adopt a final budget four times in the past 35 years — for fiscal years 1999, 2003, 2005 and 2007 — according to a recent Congressional Research Service report. If the House does not pass a first version of the budget resolution, it will be the first time since the implementation of the 1974 Budget Act, which governs the modern congressional budgeting process.

The practical consequences of failing to produce a federal budget for next year are about the same as they are for a family that doesn’t set a plan for income and spending: Congress doesn’t need a budget to tax or spend, but enforcing discipline is harder without one.

I am getting sick and tired of the left / right battles and the watching out for #1, watching out for re-election, watching out for only their State. What happened to leadership? What happened to doing what is best for America? There are very few leaders in Washington and those that are, are being pushed aside and drowned out. It is getting old.

[thevoice]

I'll stand corrected. Until the election of Scott Brown to take Chappaquiddick Teddy's seat, the Dems had total control (58 plus Sanders and Leiberman-40). But with Snowe and Collins more than willing to turn for the right price, it's only 1 vote away. Much like Ben Nelson (D-NE) on the health care vote, both are holding out for the right bribe from Harry.

[NMpackalum]

Will the GOP stop blocking the 9/11 first responders health care bill or will they find another reason to say no?

Just out of curiosity, how many first responders were there? Not against the bill just that it's an 8+ billion dollar bill and if there were 5000 first responders, that's more than 1.6million per person most of will not have a million and a half in testing, monitoring and treatment. I'm just sensitive to the asbestos litigation where fraud and abuse is rampant and tort lawyers have made out like bandits and the victims were left hanging.

[student4ever]

Here (http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h847/text)'s the text of the bill.

[student4ever]

Just out of curiosity, how many first responders were there? Not against the bill just that it's an 8+ billion dollar bill and if there were 5000 first responders, that's more than 1.6million per person most of will not have a million and a half in testing, monitoring and treatment. I'm just sensitive to the asbestos litigation where fraud and abuse is rampant and tort lawyers have made out like bandits and the victims were left hanging.

It does also include survivors as well as first responders. As far as first responders, I'm sure there were far more than 5000.

[Nosebleed]

As far as the tax cuts, I believe it is a good thing to extend the tax cuts to all. Business owners need breaks to be able to maintain or expand their businesses.

I think the administration is class baiting by continuing to call it "tax cuts for the wealthy".

Rick

[student4ever]

As far as the tax cuts, I believe it is a good thing to extend the tax cuts to all. Business owners need breaks to be able to maintain or expand their businesses.

I think the administration is class baiting by continuing to call it "tax cuts for the wealthy".

Rick

I don't have a problem with the tax cuts. I do have a problem that the GOP refused to vote for cloture on the 9/11 bill until the tax cuts were extended.

[BustNChops]

I don't have a problem with the tax cuts. I do have a problem that the GOP refused to vote for cloture on the 9/11 bill until the tax cuts were extended.

The darn GOP. They are so mean. They even took 335+ days away from the Dems and left them with only 30-days to get some serious business done. Give me a break. The Dems had a full year to work on either bill. They didn't do either. They didn't touch a budget either. The tax cut, rather the tax increase that was being voted on is of major importance. If that did not get voted on, it would have been a devastating end to 2010 and start to 2011. Nothing wrong with playing the same games that the left has done. It happens on both sides. I don't like it, but it is the way Washington works these days.

What is more appalling is that we are 9.25 years past 9/11 and a bill is just getting passed. What is appalling is that it is 9/25 years past 9/11 and new sky skyscraper(s) are not in place with full business in operation.

[student4ever]

So, again, I ask, why did the GOP filibuster it and not vote for cloture?

Besides, liberals get attacked for stupidity all the time on this board. I figured I might as well attack the GOP for their policy that tax cuts for people making more than $200,000 are more important than health care for 9/11 responders.

[BustNChops]

So, again, I ask, why did the GOP filibuster it and not vote for cloture?

I don't know. My guess, the tax increase was most important. While the GOP recognized that, people like Reid and Pelosi do not. You can not overlook their stupidity. They had to hold the carrot out of reach to get some important work done for the entire country.


Besides, liberals get attacked for stupidity all the time on this board. I figured I might as well attack the GOP for their policy that tax cuts for people making more than $200,000 are more important than health care for 9/11 responders.

First, there a lot of posters that fall independent and many that fall on the left. Those that fall liberal perhaps deserve the chastising. Each and every side has it's +/-, their right/wrong, their good policy and stupid. In my opinion, the liberals tip that scale way too far in later direction. I don' know that they have been attacked, my remarks might be the first! :D The left (including the liberals) have had 6 (?) years of power, 2 with all branches. So, let's not let that side get a Boise complex.

Both votes are very important. You can not simply strip out and compare the tax increase on the "wealthy" vs the 9/11 responder. It was a tax increase on ALL. Framing it the way you do works for the left. But for the right, it is not about class warfare vs a duty to the 9/11 responders. Again, going back to the first paragraph, perhaps it was a necessity to hold the vote back as they had no faith in the left to get a vote on the tax bill at all.

There are many things that mystify me with those in Washington. I would agree with you that it would seem rational to understand the the 9/11 first responder bill should be viewed / voted on in a completely different light and priority than any other bill. Much of what happened (news wise) the past year and half in congress is surprising.

[student4ever]

I
Both votes are very important. You can not simply strip out and compare the tax increase on the "wealthy" vs the 9/11 responder. It was a tax increase on ALL. Framing it the way you do works for the left. But for the right, it is not about class warfare vs a duty to the 9/11 responders. Again, going back to the first paragraph, perhaps it was a necessity to hold the vote back as they had no faith in the left to get a vote on the tax bill at all.

LOL. How can it not be interpreted the way I've presented it?

The left tried to extend the tax cuts for everyone making less than $200,000. The GOP filibustered and voted in lockstep against cloture.

So, the GOP voted against tax cuts for the middle class and poor because tax cuts for those making more than $200,000 wasn't in the bill.

The GOP then filibustered every other bill and voted against cloture saying their intent in doing so was that they would not allow anything to pass until the tax cut extension included those making more than $200,000.

So, tax cuts for those making more than $200,000 appear to be more important to the GOP than anything else. Interesting.

I don't have a problem portraying it this way because that is the order that things happened in. I understand don't ask, don't tell being held hostage. I understand the dream act being held hostage. I even understand budgetary concerns being held hostage. I don't have a problem those.

The 9/11 bill is another story entirely and I'm glad to see that people here understand that. FWIW, I agree that it should have been immediately brought before the senate upon passing.

Also, I think we need to go back to actual filibustering instead of the bs we have now. If we had actual filibustering, instead of the current system, the general public would be much more aware of the idiocy that has encompassed the senate.

[student4ever]

Another LOL.

When I started this thread, I had no idea that John Stewart did his whole show last night on this topic. I guess I really am a liberal mouthpiece.

[BustNChops]

LOL. How can it not be interpreted the way I've presented it?

The left tried to extend the tax cuts for everyone making less than $200,000. The GOP filibustered and voted in lockstep against cloture.

So, the GOP voted against tax cuts for the middle class and poor because tax cuts for those making more than $200,000 wasn't in the bill.

The GOP then filibustered every other bill and voted against cloture saying their intent in doing so was that they would not allow anything to pass until the tax cut extension included those making more than $200,000.

So, tax cuts for those making more than $200,000 appear to be more important to the GOP than anything else. Interesting.

I don't have a problem portraying it this way because that is the order that things happened in. I understand don't ask, don't tell being held hostage. I understand the dream act being held hostage. I even understand budgetary concerns being held hostage. I don't have a problem those.

The 9/11 bill is another story entirely and I'm glad to see that people here understand that. FWIW, I agree that it should have been immediately brought before the senate upon passing.

Also, I think we need to go back to actual filibustering instead of the bs we have now. If we had actual filibustering, instead of the current system, the general public would be much more aware of the idiocy that has encompassed the senate.

You are ok with class warfare argument and the framing of it. If the vote happened on the $200,000 then nothing would ever have been able to get passed for those making over that. It had to happen all at once. The tax increase would have been devastating!!! People making over $250,000 are considered wealthy and looked down upon for some reason by those on the left as evil. Forgive my parents and hundreds of thousands of other small business owners who bust their a$$ and hire people and produce more for this country. The left will say, oh it only affect a few percentage of them ("2%" I believe). That would affect approximately 650,000 small businesses. The affect was estimated at 1.2 jobs lost per company and the ripple affect massive. That was only on that small "2%".

You talk about holding hostage... that is posturing. It has and is always done. Don't ask don't tell is not a dire need. How about a frickin budget!!! How about not waiting until 15-days before a massive tax increase to vote on it. Remember, the left is in control. Not the GOP.

We do agree on the 9/11 Responder bill being a priority and we are both confused on why it isn't. I guess the difference is that I appreciate the pecking order that is required to get to it, as unfortunate as that is.

No offense S4E as I have met you and like you and love your analysis on the numbers on the site. There is just a core difference between you and I. I've worked in the private sector my entire life for small business. Someday I want to own one. I'm never going to buy into the class warfare arguments. Yes, the easy road would be for me to be for it now, but I can't conceive of doing that. That is all that is going on with the vote on the tax bill. There are many things I do not like about it and many things that were attached to it that I don't like, but Obama got what he wanted and the GOP leaders got what they wanted.

[student4ever]

No offense taken. I know that people see things differently.

I don't like the class warfare argument because the distance between those with money and those without is growing at the fastest pace it ever has and I don't think people like you who want to run a small business will be able to if we keep going the way we are going. I don't know the exact numbers and I'm not going to bother to look them up, but when the upper class is gaining wealth at a different pace than the middle class, there is a problem. If everyone was gaining wealth at the same rate, I'd be on the same side of this argument as you, but that isn't the case.

EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is that if there is class warfare, it goes both ways.

[BustNChops]

No offense taken. I know that people see things differently.

I don't like the class warfare argument because the distance between those with money and those without is growing at the fastest pace it ever has and I don't think people like you who want to run a small business will be able to if we keep going the way we are going. I don't know the exact numbers and I'm not going to bother to look them up, but when the upper class is gaining wealth at a different pace than the middle class, there is a problem. If everyone was gaining wealth at the same rate, I'd be on the same side of this argument as you, but that isn't the case.

EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is that if there is class warfare, it goes both ways.

I can appreciate your position. I would agree that having the disproportionate growth may not be a good thing. However, redistributing it does not work for me. We are in such odd times right now. The general business environment because more stable with this tax bill, next up is trying to figure how to reduce the deficit and sustain any growth at the same time.

I have a few last things to crank out before leaving work for weekend... but I appreciate you taking time to have this "conversation".

2 things that I think are tangents, but yet relative.

1) Interesting interview with Billionaire Chinese business man Jack Ma (http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/China/jack-ma-founder-alibabacom-power-american-ideas/story?id=12155509) pointed out the difference between the US and China and potential future. The big hurdle for the US is to figure out how to work hard again. His words are "to keep that dream". I think that is a big issue for both the poor and for the middle class. The Chinese are learning that dream, but there hurdle is "innovation" shared on a different video.

2) The Harvard Business Review daily stat from a few days ago: Unemployment Breeds Unemployment (http://web.hbr.org/email/archive/dailystat.php?date=120810) for Laid-Off Workers Americans who have been out of work for more than a year are much less likely to land a job within the next month than those who have been out for fewer than five weeks; the two groups have re-employment rates of 8.7% and 30.7%, respectively, according to The New York Times.

[Stuck in Seattle]

No offense taken. I know that people see things differently.

I don't like the class warfare argument because the distance between those with money and those without is growing at the fastest pace it ever has and I don't think people like you who want to run a small business will be able to if we keep going the way we are going. I don't know the exact numbers and I'm not going to bother to look them up, but when the upper class is gaining wealth at a different pace than the middle class, there is a problem. If everyone was gaining wealth at the same rate, I'd be on the same side of this argument as you, but that isn't the case.

EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is that if there is class warfare, it goes both ways.

First, I'm not sure of the numbers on growth in wealth and I'd look at them but I'm not injured by someone else getting wealthy. If the general trend of middle class wealth increases at a good pace I'm happy. But I've got to ask you, what mechanism would you use to somehow ensure that future increases in wealth benefit the middle class to a greater degree that wouldn't also have negative effects in other areas in the economy?

As for the WTC vote, I haven't really heard much about this in a long time. The last I'd heard the Dems had insisted on a procedure that required 2/3 majority vote so that the Republicans couldn't amend anything on the bill. I don't know if that's still the case or not. I've also read that there are major disputes on what illnesses can be attributed to the WTC collapse. Just like we saw with the depleted uranium boondoggle and other things in the past (check out the recent info that there's been no increase in cancer in the community "saved" by Erin Brockovitch") people rush to attribute illnesses to causes without much if any proof. I'm not sure if that is the case in this instance at all. But the bill is named for a guy that was initially thought to have died from WTC toxins but it was later found that he'd died from snorting insufficiently crushed pain tablets or something like that. I'm definitely for studying and monitering...but I'd like to know that we're paying this money out on legitimate claims.

There's a lot of things we don't know. We have to find a way to help people that have suffered do to the collapse of the WTC, but who to help and how much is a difficult call. Do I think the Republicans need to pass this bill as written immediately? No, but I won't throw a fit if they do...it's not as bad as other things they've passed and perhaps it's all legit. But there's been a ton of money paid out and there's been a lot of debate about the legitimacy of some of these claims.

But again I'm mostly going from old news on this stuff.

[BustNChops]

S4E - here is a news clip from this evening on ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/congress-fails-act-911-emergency-workers-first-responders-failure-health-12426957). I'm going to let this issue ride 90% on the Dems back. It is their fault this bill has not been passed.

I'll watch some Fox News tomorrow and see what we can add to it. :D

[student4ever]

S4E - here is a news clip from this evening on ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/congress-fails-act-911-emergency-workers-first-responders-failure-health-12426957). I'm going to let this issue ride 90% on the Dems back. It is their fault this bill has not been passed.

I'll watch some Fox News tomorrow and see what we can add to it. :D

LMAO. OK. Whatever you say.

We'll see if Fox has addressed it. They hadn't recently. On the Daily Show last night, Huckabee called for Republicans to pass it. overwhelmingly.

[Nosebleed]

Why is it taking so long to pass the first responder bill? Why does it have to be packaged or earmarked onto some other legislation? I am tired of all the finger pointing.

Rick