Babbitt vs Johnson NBA stock

[rimrocker26]

IMO, the ESPN top 100 is the most accurate as far as judging players NBA likely range. They actually talk to GMs and get perspective. I found this interesting:

42. Armon Johnson http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?playerId=19443&draftyear=2010

70. Luke Babbitt http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?playerId=19424&draftyear=2010


Basically it sounds like scouts are more interested in Johnson. And if he were to go this year he would be in the 2nd round. Hopefully we can keep both until they're seniors.

[battle.borne]

IMO, the ESPN top 100 is the most accurate as far as judging players NBA likely range. They actually talk to GMs and get perspective. I found this interesting:

42. Armon Johnson http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?playerId=19443&draftyear=2010

70. Luke Babbitt http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?playerId=19424&draftyear=2010


Basically it sounds like scouts are more interested in Johnson. And if he were to go this year he would be in the 2nd round. Hopefully we can keep both until they're seniors.

NBA for Armon? I love the guy but when you turnover the ball as much as he does against scrub teams like Eastern Washington and Wagner, you clearly need another year of college under your belt. He's got the better NBA body but I highly doubt he'd be drafted at all unless he had a major coming out party in March.

[nyjets57]

http://thehoopsreport.com/draft.aspx

No mention of Armon or Luke in the two round draft.

************************************************** ******************

http://www.nbadraft.net/2010mock_draft

Luke and Armon listed in the mid/late 1st round

[backsthepack]

NBA for Armon? I love the guy but when you turnover the ball as much as he does against scrub teams like Eastern Washington and Wagner, you clearly need another year of college under your belt. He's got the better NBA body but I highly doubt he'd be drafted at all unless he had a major coming out party in March.
You say that, and scouts say Gilbert Arenas.

[battle.borne]

You say that, and scouts say Gilbert Arenas.

Really? Scouts think Armon is a 2-inch shorter version of Gilbert?

[backsthepack]

Really? Scouts think Armon is a 2-inch shorter version of Gilbert?
More like he was overlooked coming out, and they don't want to miss on the next one.

[oldballcoach]

You say that, and scouts say Gilbert Arenas.

Milk just shot out my nostrils on that one.

[backsthepack]

Also, keep in mind even with Wall this could be the worst PG crop of all time. Career suicide not to at least declare and run through the process after this season.

[geezer1]

I'm thinking Armon declares, and Luke???? If Armon does go, I sure hope Carter can find a JC PG to bring in, 'cuz there's nobody on the team now that can take over (maybe Fuetsch?).

[rimrocker26]

Yeah exactly this is a terrible PG draft. And I think Gilbert Arenas is 6-3 as well. Actually 6-4.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/gilbert_arenas/

[battle.borne]

I'm thinking Armon declares, and Luke???? If Armon does go, I sure hope Carter can find a JC PG to bring in, 'cuz there's nobody on the team now that can take over (maybe Fuetsch?).

Again, it's scenarios like these which make me more of a college football than college basketball fan. Watching your best players leave before they graduate is one thing, but when it happens to a team who is still short 3 scholarship players -- it's painful! It would be a nightmare scenario. Basically, Nevada basketball would be back to the drawing board, a WAC also-ran and yet again struggling to fill Lawlor beyond 50% capacity....

I'm trying to be optimistic but I'd leave if someone dangled a few million my way so I would never begrudge Armon like I did McGee (whom I thought was a combine monster with no teeth as a sophomore).

[medpackfan]

Again, it's scenarios like these which make me more of a college football than college basketball fan. Watching your best players leave before they graduate is one thing, but when it happens to a team who is still short 3 scholarship players -- it's painful! That would be a nightmare scenario if Armon and Luke left after this year. Basically, Nevada basketball would be back to square one and a WAC also-ran.

Also-ran is actually being generous. To lose 4/5 of our starters next year and 90% of the scoring would be disasterous. We would be bottom of WAC and lucky to get to .500. Who would be our starters in that scenario. Dario, Burris, Giles, Story, Olsen/Elliot/Czyz. Good players but no established chemistry or go to guy.

[Posturedoc]

Also-ran is actually being generous. To lose 4/5 of our starters next year and 90% of the scoring would be disasterous. We would be bottom of WAC and lucky to get to .500. Who would be our starters in that scenario. Dario, Burris, Giles, Story, Olsen/Elliot/Czyz. Good players but no established chemistry or go to guy.

Losing 4/5 starters would definitely hurt, but I'm not ready to believe it would push us to the bottom of the WAC. I'll go with mid-pack. We can't really assess this with any sort of accuracy until Carter finishes recruiting in the spring and maybe even this summer if Luke and AJ don't give him a yes or no on the draft before the spring period is finished. If Carter expects them to go, I will not be at all surprised if he signs a couple of JC kids and gets a mid-year transfer or two. Keep in mind that Elliott, who still appears to be headed here if he can get his academics in order, and Evans will be one year removed from HS, so at least they will be more mature and ready to play than they would have been this season and both are clearly talents. The biggest single factor will be how ready to play AJ's replacement is, be it a substantially improved (I hope) Giles or a recruit.

[RenoGuy]

Yeah, I think if we lost both Luke and Armon after this season, Nevada would offically go back to being a football school. It would take a few years to recover, if we could.

Back to Armon, though. We know Ramon is doing pretty well in the NBA and I think those guys are quite comparable. What are people's thoughts?

Both are big and strong for PG's. Both are great at driving to the basket, even when well guarded.

You can make the point that Armon is a better scorer due to his stats, but that may be misleading because Ramon's team had more scorers and he didn't need to shoot as much.

Or you could argue Ramon was better with assists and fewer TO's, but he had Mr. Dependable (Nick) to pass to.

Ramon does seem to have a great attitude and is very coachable. There may seem some questions in that area with Armon.

Anyway, I think Armon will make it in the NBA. But he should learn from Ramon and see it's not a good idea to get picked late in the 2nd round, or heaven forbid go undrafted.

[medpackfan]

Yeah, I think if we lost both Luke and Armon after this season, Nevada would offically go back to being a football school. It would take a few years to recover, if we could.

Back to Armon, though. We know Ramon is doing pretty well in the NBA and I think those guys are quite comparable. What are people's thoughts?

Both are big and strong for PG's. Both are great at driving to the basket, even when well guarded.

You can make the point that Armon is a better scorer due to his stats, but that may be misleading because Ramon's team had more scorers and he didn't need to shoot as much.

Or you could argue Ramon was better with assists and fewer TO's, but he had Mr. Dependable (Nick) to pass to.

Ramon does seem to have a great attitude and is very coachable. There may seem some questions in that area with Armon.

Anyway, I think Armon will make it in the NBA. But he should learn from Ramon and see it's not a good idea to get picked late in the 2nd round, or heaven forbid go undrafted.

I actually don't mind them testing the waters after this year. They should not hire an agent and see what happens in the draft. If they don't get drafted then they can return and have the feedback to work on what needs to be worked on.

Now honestly who here before 2003 thought we would ever have this many NBA talents playing for the pack, let alone have two on one team?

[oldballcoach]

I actually don't mind them testing the waters after this year. They should not hire an agent and see what happens in the draft. If they don't get drafted then they can return and have the feedback to work on what needs to be worked on.

Now honestly who here before 2003 thought we would ever have this many NBA talents playing for the pack, let alone have two on one team?


Haven't we had 3 on one team before? Definitely was not something I conceived in 2002. Makes me wonder, did they upgrade the DC and food options on campus since I've been gone or something? I remember seeing the basketball team eat there and thinking to myself it's a good idea to bet against these guys lol.

[oldballcoach]

You guys have to be kidding yourselves to some extent on Armon. He doesn't have the size or shooting ability to play the 2, nor the handles and point guard mentality of a 1. He is a tweener who relies on getting to the rim, yet he is not half as fast as Lawson or Ramon. He should get his degree and have a nice career in Europe like Fazekas and Kemp.

[pack booster]

Armon might be a better shooter than Ramon but Ramon is a better PG.

After playing pick up games with Ramon, Armon was quoted as saying he was the best basketball player he has ever been around.

[mustangs05]

This site (http://www.nbadraft.net/2010mock_draft) has both Babbitt, and Johnson going in the first round.

[justintime]

I kind of agree on Armon. Solid Euro Pro, not Association quality.

Explosive above-the-rim finisher a la Arenas? Nope.
Quickest player on the floor, a la Rondo? Nope.
Superlative distributor/floor leader a la CP3? Nope.
Lights out defender, a la Heinrich? Nope
Perimeter assassin a la Curry? Nope.
Can get his shot any time he wants against bigger defenders, a la DWill? Probably not.
Big PG who creates a mismatch problem with his post game, a la Billups? Maybe.

The biggest things he could improve to get a better look would be a consistent 35-40% perimeter jumper and show some ability to shut down guards his size or larger. He bullies the smaller WAC guards he sees, but I think he struggles against players his own size.

JMO. Maybe I'm wrong, and I'd love to be. More WAC players in the Assoc. is good for the league.

[oldballcoach]

How can this even be a discussion right now when he has shot 27.5% from 3 the last 2 years and is currently turning the ball over 4 times a game?

[battle.borne]

Armon might be a better shooter than Ramon but Ramon is a better PG.

After playing pick up games with Ramon, Armon was quoted as saying he was the best basketball player he has ever been around.

I think we all saw how "NBA ready" Ramon was even as a true freshman. He had all the tools to be a starting PG in the league, sans a reliable outside shot. But he was an above average defender, great passer, solid ball handler, good finisher and had great court vision and size. Armon has some of those same tools but there are a bunch more questions than answers with Armon imo. I will say I think oldballcoach is mistaken. Armon is quicker and the better athlete but Ramon is the better basketball player and point guard.

[battle.borne]

How can this even be a discussion right now when he has shot 27.5% from 3 the last 2 years and is currently turning the ball over 4 times a game?

Because it's the NBA, which is the only league that doesn't mind wasting millions on projects. :eek:

[oldballcoach]

I think we all saw how "NBA ready" Ramon was even as a true freshman. He had all the tools to be a starting PG in the league, sans a reliable outside shot. But he was an above average defender, great passer, solid ball handler, good finisher and had great court vision and size. Armon has some of those same tools but there are a bunch more questions than answers with Armon imo. I will say I think oldballcoach is mistaken. Armon is quicker and the better athlete but Ramon is the better basketball player and point guard.


Are you kidding? Armon is running in concrete compared to Ramon. You don't remember when Ramon was a freshman and one blink he would have penetrated and scored?

[oldballcoach]

Because it's the NBA, which is the only league that doesn't mind wasting millions on projects. :eek:

Well someone like McGee is exactly what the NBA is looking for. An acrobatic 7 footer who can run and block shots and even shoot a little bit.

[battle.borne]

Are you kidding? Armon is running in concrete compared to Ramon. You don't remember when Ramon was a freshman and one blink he would have penetrated and scored?

I'm going to have to ask for a tiebreaking opinon. Ramon was not a freakish athlete and had an average vertical leap, whereas I think Armon is the better pure athlete and better finisher around the rim thanks to his athleticism.

[Stuck in Seattle]

I'm going to have to ask for a tiebreaking opinon. Ramon was not a freakish athlete and bad only a average vertical leap, whereas I think Armon is the better pure athlete and better finisher around the rim thanks to his athleticism.

Comparing Freshman and Soph season Armon was better at pretty much everything than Ramon. Ramon had more offensive rebounds and more assists, but if Armon had Fazekas and Pink as a freshman or Faz as a sophomore and the 3pt shooting we had that year, how many more assists would Armon have had? And the Assist stats weren't that different.

Armon even turned the ball over less than Ramon.

It's in the junior season that were seeing a change. Ramon improved dramatically in his junior season. His FT shooting went from bad to over 80%. Armon's always been a good FT shooter, but it's not improved and he's averaging under 80%. Ramon's FG shooting got better as he started going to the rim seemingly at will. Still, all that does is catch him up to Armon and he still never shot better than Armon.

Armon has regressed in several measure so far this season. Not a lot, but noticeably. I predicted his turnovers and assists would both go up with this new offense and they have. It will take some time for him to adjust. But while Armon was a flashier passer than Armon, his results weren't much better and he had better tools to work with in an offense that was bound to lead to fewer turnovers than the one Armon is in now.

I'd say Armon might be more attractive to the NBA because his offense is more varied and he's more consistent offensively. I think his pull up jumper will be effective at the next level and he'll be able to get to the rim almost as effectively as Ramon.

But if I had to choose one for the Pack it would be a tough call.

[geezer1]

Am I the only one who sees the irony in Nevada having 2 potential first round NBA picks, and yet being 6-4 with no wins on the road yet this season?

[RenoGuy]

Am I the only one who sees the irony in Nevada having 2 potential first round NBA picks, and yet being 6-4 with no wins on the road yet this season?

It is somewhat ironic considering Fields and Shaw aren't too shabby either.

But I think it comes down to lack of depth this season. The starters have to play too much against good oponents.

We once had three potential NBA players (not first rounders, though) in Sessions, Fazekas, and Kemp. And those guys won a ton of games and made the Dance every time.

[battle.borne]

Comparing Freshman and Soph season Armon was better at pretty much everything than Ramon. Ramon had more offensive rebounds and more assists, but if Armon had Fazekas and Pink as a freshman or Faz as a sophomore and the 3pt shooting we had that year, how many more assists would Armon have had? And the Assist stats weren't that different.

Armon even turned the ball over less than Ramon.

It's in the junior season that were seeing a change. Ramon improved dramatically in his junior season. His FT shooting went from bad to over 80%. Armon's always been a good FT shooter, but it's not improved and he's averaging under 80%. Ramon's FG shooting got better as he started going to the rim seemingly at will. Still, all that does is catch him up to Armon and he still never shot better than Armon.

Armon has regressed in several measure so far this season. Not a lot, but noticeably. I predicted his turnovers and assists would both go up with this new offense and they have. It will take some time for him to adjust. But while Armon was a flashier passer than Armon, his results weren't much better and he had better tools to work with in an offense that was bound to lead to fewer turnovers than the one Armon is in now.

I'd say Armon might be more attractive to the NBA because his offense is more varied and he's more consistent offensively. I think his pull up jumper will be effective at the next level and he'll be able to get to the rim almost as effectively as Ramon.

But if I had to choose one for the Pack it would be a tough call.

That's all well and good but the question was who is the quicker player (better athlete). :eek: :D

[battle.borne]

Am I the only one who sees the irony in Nevada having 2 potential first round NBA picks, and yet being 6-4 with no wins on the road yet this season?

Well we had a lottery pick and still lost in the first round of the CBI at home so irony is common place around here....

[Stuck in Seattle]

For some reason the quote function wouldn't work, but I think they're close to even athletically. I think Ramon might have a quicker first step and Armon is a little bit better leaper and has more body control in the air. I think Armon probably dribbles as good or better than Ramon and is tougher to defend.

[Posturedoc]

For some reason the quote function wouldn't work, but I think they're close to even athletically. I think Ramon might have a quicker first step and Armon is a little bit better leaper and has more body control in the air. I think Armon probably dribbles as good or better than Ramon and is tougher to defend.

I second your opinion, SiS.

[AJ fan]

Are you kidding? Armon is running in concrete compared to Ramon. You don't remember when Ramon was a freshman and one blink he would have penetrated and scored?

Wow you must be the only one that remembers things that way! Check your stats and they are very similar in quickness. In fact Armon has got to be one of the quickest leapers I have ever seen. When you are comparing sizes of players height does not matter if you have super long arms and big hands. The team is not doing as well and that's where Armon suffers in his comparison with Ramon.

[oldballcoach]

You guys are all nuts. I guess nobody here has NBA league pass and saw Ramon playing like Lebron Jr last spring:confused:

I don't think Armon will ever be confused with the king