The Arizona Issue...

[wolf_chatter]

first of all I find interesting that there hasn't been much of a discussion yet so I figured as a hispanic male I would bring it up.

First of all, I understand the issues facing AZ and I know that the Fed isn't helping the situation at all.. so I see why AZ did what they did. The problem I have is I don't quit know how to feel, as an American, illegal immigration is disconcerting and we need to address it right now. But as a brown skinned American I have a huge problem with having to carry "papers" around just because I look Hispanic. I understand that the law isn't necessarily set up that way and police are only supposed to ask when a crime has been committed or there is suspicion of a committed crime. But one can't help but wonder how long before every person that looks Hispanic starts getting harrased.

Before any of you right wing nutters writes something stupid and racist.... put yourself in the shoes of every brown person in AZ and ask yourself how comfortable you would feel in your home state if White people were being stopped and asked to see their papers.

[justintime]

My girlfriend happens to be one of those brown American citizens living in the US. She's already stated that she won't show papers if stopped, a small act of civil disobedience.

As an Arizona resident, my problem with the law is threefold.

1.) Just like the employer of illegal immigrants bill passed in 2005(?), there's no mechanism to fund training of local law enforcement to do ICE's job. Our legislature loves to pass bills without actually funding them, hangs their hats on extreme fiscal conservative "no tax" stuff, and then wonders why we face a huge defecit every year. They want to do things, they just refuse to pay for them.

2.) It's been stated that people won't be stopped solely on the basis of race, but even if their are other reasons why a person is stopped, race still plays some roll, correct? I have a couple of Eastern European friends who's visas have expired. They are illegal, but I know they won't be stopped.

3.) Our economy already sucks in this state, but this is another 3-4 nails in the coffin. Students of Hispanic descent are transferring out of the University of Arizona. People are canceling vacation plans. Government and corporate entities outside the state are canceling conventions and forbidding their employees from traveling on official business. Part of my work is funded privately, and I'm extremely worried that that foundation will pull back their U of A money.

With the majority of Arizona's Caucasian population being of the retirement ilk, and the majority of their quickly expanding young population being Hispanic, I can't help but wonder if this is a last gasp against changes in societal demographics by the old guard.

[Pack Backer]

I think if the issue of illegal immigration were dealt with more directly when it reached a fever pitch back in 2007, we might not be having this discussion. Instead, it was put on the back-burner and reemerged with a vengeance thanks to the Arizona bill.

The law's proposed revisions (http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/conlaw/2010/05/proposed-amendments-to-arizona-immigration-law-sb-1070-.html) take some of the teeth out of the original bill, but it's still a pretty scary precedent to set.

What would be wrong with harsher punishments for businesses that hire illegal immigrants? Or putting more pressure on Mexico to actually punish the people who can (apparently) just up and leave the country without repurcussions? Either of those things are worth exploring before implementing a law like this one.

[NMpackalum]

I am also brown skinned (of the Asian variety) and I too have some heartburn over the law and I certainly can envision being stopped. However, the upside to the controversy is this forces the feds to implement a reasonable immigration policy with a guest worker program and secure the border. I can tell you that a large percentage of naturalized citizens like my parents who did things the right way are 100% behind this law.

With regard to the economic costs, if this law is effective in decreasing illegal immigration (which I doubt), the boycotts will pale in comparison to the savings to tax payers considering the estimated 1 billion+ dollars that AZ spends for additional medical, educational and law enforcement for undocumented aliens. Personally, I don't find it a burden or a violation of my civil liberties to provide a drivers license if I commit a crime.

As Dennis Miller says, I'm all for open borders as long as they sign the guestbook.

[justintime]

AFAIK, illegal immigrants are a net economic positive for the State of Arizona and the Federal government. Most of them work off of forged or stolen SSN's which means the pay all the normal payroll taxes that you and I do, but aren't eligible to receive aid under most social programs.

Pack Backer,

I think the employer crackdown had the potential to work, but like everything else, the legislature here in AZ just made it a law, but didn't provide any training or support to allow for proper enforcement. The real issue is that the risks of crossing the border illegally don't currently outweigh the benefits of doing so. Investing in Mexican infrastructure and development would be one way to lessen the sharp economic gradient between the two countries. As one who spend significant time in the wide open spaces near the AZ-Sonora border, I don't believe it can ever be effectively physically secured. What needs to change is the cost-benefit calculus of your typical illegal immigrant.

[Slapdad]

In most developed countries, it is required by law that everyone above a certain age (usually around 14-16) carry identification. In fact, Mexico, by way of the 2006 Ley General de Poblacion (General Law of the Population) requires, among other things, that "Citizens must carry a national ID card and register with the National Population Registry. Foreigners are tracked through the National Catalog of Foreigners". Other goodies:

* Immigrants must show demonstrated ability to contribute to national progress.

* Immigrants must prove they can provide for themselves and their dependents, and not depend on welfare.

* Foreigners can be disallowed residence if they ‘upset demographic balance’ meaning Mexican immigration law pretty explicitly discriminates on the basis of race, ethnicity, age, gender and whatever other demographic criteria deemed important.

* Foreigners can be immediately kicked out for misbehavior, criminal activity, or for falling ill.

* Illegal immigration is punishable not just by deportation, but by two years imprisonment. A repeat offender faces ten years imprisonment. Falsifying identification documents or engaging in a sham marriage to receive citizenship are also punishable by imprisonment.

* All law enforcement officials, including the military, are expected to enforce immigration law.

I haven't had time to get up to speed on the Arizona law, but Mexico has always pouted about the U.S. tightening up it's immigration laws....laws which don't even come close to what Mexico has in place. Mexico's problems have been spilling into the U.S. for decades and now things have reached a point where there needs to be some push-back. If I were a Mexican (or Latino) American, I would carry my id on me (just like I do as a non-Latino American) and be understanding that, if/when an official asked me for my papers, that they are protecting upholding the laws and protecting the quality of life that I, my parents, or my grandparents came to the U.S. to enjoy.

I have no problem with immigration, legal or otherwise, because I understand that if I had the misfortune of being born where I couldn't provide for my family or I didn't feel safe, I'd be doing everything I could to go somewhere to change that. I would like to think that I would also understand that the place I'm going for that better life has a right to protect their borders.

Honestly, I think too many people just like to complain.

[Slapdad]

AFAIK, illegal immigrants are a net economic positive for the State of Arizona and the Federal government. Most of them work off of forged or stolen SSN's which means the pay all the normal payroll taxes that you and I do, but aren't eligible to receive aid under most social programs.


Have you ever seen the other side of that equation? I have....and here's how it REALLY works out. An illegal immigrant works off of a stolen SSN, claiming 10 exemptions on their W-4 (more than 10 exemptions requires an employer to report it to the IRS at the time of hiring), therefore paying the absolute minimum taxes, then typically, they move on in 12-18 months before they are found out and they start all over again. The people who those SS#'s really belong to get a nasty letter in the mail from the IRS saying that they owe additional taxes and so begins their headache, which typically lasts over a year. While I will agree that the illegal immigrants who operate in this way never enjoy the benefits of the social security taxes that were withheld (though I think the same could very well be said of ALL of us who pay SocSec down the road), they enjoy the benefits of the infrastructure here without paying their share of the taxes.

[Stuck in Seattle]

Slappy: So that's what we're aspiring to be....like Mexico? No thanks.

I'd allow almost anyone without a criminal background to enter the US and get on a path to citizenship.

Guest workers are like indentured servants. I don't like that program. If they want to come and go let them as long as they aren't criminals.

Crime is low in most border communities and our immigrants are important to the economy. I'm not saying this is much ado about nothing, but I don't buy the arguments that they are leaches on society. At the same time, what of the pain of those who have friends and family murdered by illegal immigrants? It happens every day. But I don't have an answer for that.

I don't like the law, but I don't find it to be so onerous as to make Arizona a fascist state. I also think the complaints from Justintime that people will cancel trips and students will refuse to go to school there are effects that will last all of a month or two. That'll change as soon as 99% of people realize it has zero effect on their day to day lives and the liberals tire of the issue and move on to the next one.

But something has to be done. The majority of the country is very pro immigrant and wants them to be given a path to citizenship, but they want new immigrants to be legal and the border secure. It's not even a complicated issue, but both sides see the opportunity to score political points as more important than fixing the problem.

Build a fence. Amnesty for all that haven't committed a felony or multiple gross misdemeanors. Expand our ability to accept immigrants at the border. Get fingerprints and dna, issue ID and let them in if they have no documented criminal past.

Of course, right now we get the hardest workers and risk takers as they have to run the border. If we normalize it as I suggested above, we really will get the slackers that will be more of a burden on our social services. But it will at least secure the border.

[Stuck in Seattle]

Have you ever seen the other side of that equation? I have....and here's how it REALLY works out. An illegal immigrant works off of a stolen SSN, claiming 10 exemptions on their W-4 (more than 10 exemptions requires an employer to report it to the IRS at the time of hiring), therefore paying the absolute minimum taxes, then typically, they move on in 12-18 months before they are found out and they start all over again. The people who those SS#'s really belong to get a nasty letter in the mail from the IRS saying that they owe additional taxes and so begins their headache, which typically lasts over a year. While I will agree that the illegal immigrants who operate in this way never enjoy the benefits of the social security taxes that were withheld (though I think the same could very well be said of ALL of us who pay SocSec down the road), they enjoy the benefits of the infrastructure here without paying their share of the taxes.
I'll disagree with you a little here, at least according to my experience as an employer.

First, they apply with all of the proper documentation including Green Card and SSN. We always took color copies of the paperwork for every employee. So, for those of you that want to blame businesses, how are businesses going to be held liable when they are following the law?

They do work off a stolen SSN. But the ones I've known didn't claim 10 exemptions. They claimed just like everyone else.

They don't always up and move as there's little need to do so. When Social Security finds duplicate use they call the business or send a letter with a list of those who's SSN doesn't match their identity. At that point the employer has to demand proper ID then contact SSN. The illegal immigrant then just leaves and goes somewhere else to get a job.

Yes, it's a huge headache for the person that actually owns the SSN that was stolen.

But they do pay taxes. They pay all sales taxes, SSN, Medicare, Employment Security etcetera (except for those that work under the table, of course, but citizens do that too). They don't pay much federal income tax in your example, but they wouldn't have anyway...they are usually not making enough that they'd have owed much. I don't think that overall they are a net drain on the system.

[justintime]

Slappy,

I've never been in a position to see what you describe. It certainly sounds plausible and I wouldn't doubt you. At the same time, I've seen reliable peer-reviewed studies (http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=881584) that show that illegal immigrants pay far more into the system in the form of taxes than they reap in social services. That doesn't even include the economic benefits of cheap labor and its effect on prices. I don't know exactly what the US would look like if every illegal job were populated by a true minimum wage earning American, but I suspect it would cost most of us significantly more for goods we assume should be inexpensive.

SiS,

You could also be right about a limited reactionary effect regarding the boycotts, etc. My point is that many of these businesses, especially in the tourism and agriculture, are already on the bleeding edge of what constitutes solvency. This could push many of them over that edge and it won't matter that people forget about it in 6 months, because they won't be here.

The amateur economist in me agrees with your supposition that the current circumstances are selective for those immigrants most likely to be hardworking, but perhaps also more violent.

[NMpackalum]

I can concur with SIS that the majority of undocumented aliens are generally not leaches on society in my experience. In my practice, they are respectful, curteous, on time and they make an effort to pay their bills.I don't get that courtesy from many of our own citizens. Here in the oilfield, you wouldn't have any employees if you didn't have illegal aliens since the majority of locals can't pass a drug test.

[Slapdad]

Slappy: So that's what we're aspiring to be....like Mexico? No thanks.




Absolutely not....that wasn't my point at all. The point of showing what laws Mexico have in place was to illustrate the hypocrisy of the response from the Mexican government, who pretend that any steps the U.S. may take to tighten up immigration are outrageous. I don't see how they can maintain that position at all, given the laws that in place in Mexico.

BUT, as I said, nearly every developed country in the world requires people to carry identification......requiring that isn't an violation of anyone's rights.

As I said before, I am all for immigration......but I can see both sides of the argument.

[Stuck in Seattle]

Slappy,

I've never been in a position to see what you describe. It certainly sounds plausible and I wouldn't doubt you. At the same time, I've seen reliable peer-reviewed studies (http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=881584) that show that illegal immigrants pay far more into the system in the form of taxes than they reap in social services. That doesn't even include the economic benefits of cheap labor and its effect on prices. I don't know exactly what the US would look like if every illegal job were populated by a true minimum wage earning American, but I suspect it would cost most of us significantly more for goods we assume should be inexpensive.

SiS,

You could also be right about a limited reactionary effect regarding the boycotts, etc. My point is that many of these businesses, especially in the tourism and agriculture, are already on the bleeding edge of what constitutes solvency. This could push many of them over that edge and it won't matter that people forget about it in 6 months, because they won't be here.

The amateur economist in me agrees with your supposition that the current circumstances are selective for those immigrants most likely to be hardworking, but perhaps also more violent.
Yep, we get the hard working poor and the criminals (mostly the former IMHO). If we close the border but increase legal immigration to a million a year we would start getting the slothful that want to take advantage of our social services but were too lazy or comfortable to run the border. We'd still get the criminals as they'd just recruit people with no criminal past or smuggle them in in different ways.

[Slapdad]

I'll disagree with you a little here, at least according to my experience as an employer.

First, they apply with all of the proper documentation including Green Card and SSN. We always took color copies of the paperwork for every employee. So, for those of you that want to blame businesses, how are businesses going to be held liable when they are following the law?

They do work off a stolen SSN. But the ones I've known didn't claim 10 exemptions. They claimed just like everyone else.

They don't always up and move as there's little need to do so. When Social Security finds duplicate use they call the business or send a letter with a list of those who's SSN doesn't match their identity. At that point the employer has to demand proper ID then contact SSN. The illegal immigrant then just leaves and goes somewhere else to get a job.

Yes, it's a huge headache for the person that actually owns the SSN that was stolen.

But they do pay taxes. They pay all sales taxes, SSN, Medicare, Employment Security etcetera (except for those that work under the table, of course, but citizens do that too). They don't pay much federal income tax in your example, but they wouldn't have anyway...they are usually not making enough that they'd have owed much. I don't think that overall they are a net drain on the system.

I've seen it firsthand....it happens all the time. They don't claim ten exemptions, but they can claim up to ten without the employer having to report it. Typically, you'll see 2-5 exemptions.....and they don't pay on April 15th. If they are paid under the table, there are no taxes paid at all. Sales tax is great, but that's a small percentage of what they typically make. In most instances, a good deal of what they earn is sent to their family in Mexico. Honestly, I don't have a problem with that.......I think the lengths that most illegal immigrants go through to have the opportunity at a better life is amazing....and they probably have a much better appreciation for what it means to be an American that most American citizens.........but I'm not going to believe for a second that nobody gets hurt in this because I've seen more than one situation where the person whose SS# was stolen pays a huge price. That was the whole point.......nobody ever considers the other parties involved (as evidenced by your one sentence mention). I doubt you would feel the same if you went through it.

[Slapdad]

Slappy,

I've never been in a position to see what you describe. It certainly sounds plausible and I wouldn't doubt you.

I've seen it from both sides. I know someone who was the victim in that case AND...a close friend of mine came to this country as an illegal immigrant. I met him when I graduated from high school and knowing him was what changed my tune on immigration. He is a fantastic person, a great husband and father, a hard worker and a great friend. It wasn't until I had known him for many years and he had been naturalized that he told me about how it worked from growing up in Mexico City, to spending nights terrified in Tijuana and Juarez waiting to be smuggled across the border and being sent back twice before making it to Nevada and being able to stay. He explained about how he knew he would have to move on if HR questioned him....and how he had to disappear when he had to. Believe me, I get it.

By the way, employment security/unemployment taxes are an employer-paid tax.

[Stuck in Seattle]

I've seen it firsthand....it happens all the time. They don't claim ten exemptions, but they can claim up to ten without the employer having to report it. Typically, you'll see 2-5 exemptions.....and they don't pay on April 15th. If they are paid under the table, there are no taxes paid at all. Sales tax is great, but that's a small percentage of what they typically make. In most instances, a good deal of what they earn is sent to their family in Mexico. Honestly, I don't have a problem with that.......I think the lengths that most illegal immigrants go through to have the opportunity at a better life is amazing....and they probably have a much better appreciation for what it means to be an American that most American citizens.........but I'm not going to believe for a second that nobody gets hurt in this because I've seen more than one situation where the person whose SS# was stolen pays a huge price. That was the whole point.......nobody ever considers the other parties involved (as evidenced by your one sentence mention). I doubt you would feel the same if you went through it.
I agree it causes problems. I find the people murdered and hurt by the illegals to be a much bigger issue. But I think both pale in comparison to what immigrants bring and the importance of sticking to our ideals. Every group that has had nearly unlimited ability to enter the US and become citizens wants to close the door behind them when they get here. It's not the American way.

As I wrote, I want to try to seal the border...but I want around a million immigrants a year too. But if they don't maintain a job, learn English, avoid committing crimes and work towards citizenship...ship them back after 3 years or so.

As for their sending money back home...I admire it, but the sad fact is that it's the only thing that keeps Mexico a kleptocratic third world dump of a nation. That money keeps the nation afloat and acts as a pressure relief valve for the poor, and without it there would be change to something better.

[wolf_chatter]

I figured I would be getting angry right about now but so far nobody has really said anything that I don't agree with for the most part.

Of course BB hasn't had time to check the Hannity Site for how he should respond!!!:D


I agree with SiS far more of the illegals contribute than just take. Its bullshit made up by the right-wing to scare people into getting rid of brown skinned people.

[Stuck in Seattle]

I figured I would be getting angry right about now but so far nobody has really said anything that I don't agree with for the most part.

Of course BB hasn't had time to check the Hannity Site for how he should respond!!!:D


I agree with SiS far more of the illegals contribute than just take. Its bullshit made up by the right-wing to scare people into getting rid of brown skinned people.
That's just nonsense. There are plenty on the left and in the center that don't want them here. Unions other than SEIU hate illegals. Much of the African American community opposes them as well. You criticize others for their stereotypical views, but never see how skewed your own are.

The right doesn't hate or fear "brown people". They do oppose special treatment based on race. The problems associated with illegal immigration are quite real, though some are overblown. Over 60% of AZ backs the law including a lot of immigrants and I guarantee you a lot of Republicans poll as opposed to the law while a lot of dems are for it.

It was Reagan that signed the last amnesty bill and Bush that pushed for the most recent one. Your stereotypes of the right would be understandable if they weren't just the talking points of the left with little basis in fact or any nuance.

And yes I know you aren't a total lefty.

[renowiggum]

Typically, you'll see 2-5 exemptions...

Given that I as a single guy with no kids have either 1 or 2 exemptions on my taxes, 2-5 sounds pretty average to me, particularly if one has a family or kids.

[wolf_chatter]

That's just nonsense. There are plenty on the left and in the center that don't want them here. Unions other than SEIU hate illegals. Much of the African American community opposes them as well. You criticize others for their stereotypical views, but never see how skewed your own are.

The right doesn't hate or fear "brown people". They do oppose special treatment based on race. The problems associated with illegal immigration are quite real, though some are overblown. Over 60% of AZ backs the law including a lot of immigrants and I guarantee you a lot of Republicans poll as opposed to the law while a lot of dems are for it.

It was Reagan that signed the last amnesty bill and Bush that pushed for the most recent one. Your stereotypes of the right would be understandable if they weren't just the talking points of the left with little basis in fact or any nuance.

And yes I know you aren't a total lefty.

I was just trying to get someones Ire up! :D

Looks like it Worked... but seriously, I know there is a very small faction of the right and left that are racist and don't care to see people of any color migrating into the US and they don't control the majority of positions held in Gov. but there is some and you can't deny that. Actually I am against amnesty as a solution. But what else is there to do.

[RenoGuy]

But they do pay taxes. They pay all sales taxes, SSN, Medicare, Employment Security etcetera (except for those that work under the table, of course, but citizens do that too). They don't pay much federal income tax in your example, but they wouldn't have anyway...they are usually not making enough that they'd have owed much. I don't think that overall they are a net drain on the system.

If they have low income, they can file federal income tax forms and not owe any tax, but they'll get money back due to child tax credits and the earned income credit.

For instance, a family of four making $50,000 wouldn't owe any income tax after exemptions, the standard deduction, and child tax credits. If they make $25,000, they'd actually get a "refund" of over $7000, mainly due to the earned income credit.

There is a lot of abuse of that credit, but I don't know how the dollars lost to it compare to money made from other taxes and Social Security.

[bornsilverandblue]

I like what George Will had to say about this, in that the Arizona law merely allows local law enforcement to enforce federal law. All resident aliens are required to carry their green card and other relevant identification with them, anyway. That's my two cents.

[Stuck in Seattle]

I like what George Will had to say about this, in that the Arizona law merely allows local law enforcement to enforce federal law. All resident aliens are required to carry their green card and other relevant identification with them, anyway. That's my two cents.
Yes, they are supposed to carry, but should law enforcement be able to stop and detain people that have done nothing to give the officer reason to do so? On the other hand, Will is exactly right. The feds refuse to do their job.

Dems look at illegals as easy votes (and yes they vote). Their support for opposition to restrictions is a way to ensure that legal Hispanics vote democrat. So they oppose more restrictions and barriers. They opposed Bush on reform because they didn't want a Republican getting credit. They figured they could wait for a Dem president in '08 then pass amnesty to help lock up more Hispanic votes. And none of this costs them their moderates as they don't want illegals locked up and shipped off (though they'd like stricter enforcement at the border).

Many Republicans oppose amnesty to shore up the nativist and hard right without costing themselves any of the middle as the middle wants stricter enforcement at the border (though they don't want illegals locked up and shipped off).

Both sides can pretend to do something while doing nothing without losing any political support.

Pathetic.

[NevadaConvert]

I fully support the law. It's really not any different than what's on the federal books right now...it's just that AZ will actually enforce it and turn people over to ICE. I can't believe how much propaganda is being spewed by the no-borders people. Carry your DL or some other ID and you're guaranteed to have zero problems if you're hispanic.

Technically, I think you're supposed to have some sort of ID on you whenever you're in public....it's always been that way. If you get busted for jaywalking, the cop will ask you for your ID. Yeah, I got busted jaywalking a long time ago. I was a smarty pants and told the cop, "You can't give me a jaywalking ticket, my walking insurance is going to go up now".

[thelawlorfaithful]

As far as I am concerned, the Arizona issue is of no concern to me at all. The people in Arizona can elect whoever they want to pass whatever laws they support. And if they object to the job they do they can kick them out of office. How Arizona governs itself is none of my business. If I don't like what they do or how they act I don't have to go there or live there. And if Nevada passed a law that Arizona or people in any other state didn't agree with, I couldn't care less. Its our state and the only people whose opinions that would matter to me would be Nevadans. I couldn't give a damn if anyone else in America didn't like how we choose to live and Arizona shouldn't either.

The immigration issue on the other hand is an issue to all Americans. I don't know near enough to have a solid opinion on it. And there are many very intelligent people on this board giving opinions and making good points on the issue so I will just have to leave it at that.

It is odd to me, though, knowing the nature of this board for it to take so long to get this thread started.

[student4ever]

I'm ok with the law. My aversion to slippery slope arguments probably plays a role in that as most of the animosity against the law is based on a slippery slope.

[Stuck in Seattle]

I'm ok with the law. My aversion to slippery slope arguments probably plays a role in that as most of the animosity against the law is based on a slippery slope.
You're actually trying to find logic in this mess? I think it's mostly just cynical politics. Nobody will care about it in 2 months if AZ doesn't cave on the whole thing.

[thehowling]

I don't know but Machete is pissed off (http://www.aintitcool.com/node/44943) about it! NSFW (language)

[Artic Wolf]

I like what George Will had to say about this, in that the Arizona law merely allows local law enforcement to enforce federal law. All resident aliens are required to carry their green card and other relevant identification with them, anyway. That's my two cents.

The AZ law merely enforces what has been done there for a long time....allows local law enforcement to enforce federal law, and bring attention to the fact the the Feds aren't doing their job. It does not allow law enforcement to pull over someone or detain them on a random basis. There has to be "probable cause" for "anyone" to be stopped or pulled over. People IMO are acting hysterical in thinking, like Obama, that if you look a certain way you won't be able to take little Johnny out for an ice cream for fear of being "asked for your papers"! Being blown way out of proportion.

Have you ever traveled "legally" in a foreign country? Do you or do you not carry your ID and or passport with you....in fact you have to. If you are in a country illegally, just what do you think would happen to you there?? This isn't about immigration, it's about people crossing our borders "illegally" and entering this country illegally, which is breaking the law isn't it?

[wolf_chatter]

I fully support the law. It's really not any different than what's on the federal books right now...it's just that AZ will actually enforce it and turn people over to ICE. I can't believe how much propaganda is being spewed by the no-borders people. Carry your DL or some other ID and you're guaranteed to have zero problems if you're hispanic.

Technically, I think you're supposed to have some sort of ID on you whenever you're in public....it's always been that way. If you get busted for jaywalking, the cop will ask you for your ID. Yeah, I got busted jaywalking a long time ago. I was a smarty pants and told the cop, "You can't give me a jaywalking ticket, my walking insurance is going to go up now".

in order for a cop to ask you for it... the way it looks like in AZ is they can stop you and ask just because you look Hispanic even though you haven't done anything wrong. That's the problem.

[Stuck in Seattle]

in order for a cop to ask you for it... the way it looks like in AZ is they can stop you and ask just because you look Hispanic even though you haven't done anything wrong. That's the problem.
Do you think they have time to pull over everyone that looks Hispanic in any AZ city? Do you think police don't have a good idea who is legal and who is not? Heck, almost anyone that talks to someone for 20 seconds will probably have 90%+ accuracy in deciding if they are legal or illegal. Is it profiling? Certainly since they won't be asking Poles and Canadians if they are legal (assuming they could find a Polish or Canadian immigrant in AZ). But that doesn't mean it will be indiscriminate or harassing for Hispanics in general.

[coachlennyd]

As a Arizona resident I do not believe there is anything wrong with the law if it is followed as written.
If I was arrested in any other country in the world I would be required to show my proof of citizenship and if I was there illegally I would be deported after facing the penalty of the crime. Not to compare or that we want to be like other countries but in some (Iran, North Korea, etc.) I would be locked up or killed.
If police start pulling over or harrasing people without reason then we are in trouble. I truly do not believe that this will happen.

Another bonus of this law is that at least the federal government is talking about it and maybe they will secure our border.
I also believe that border security and immigration are separate issues. The border must be secured to stop drugs, weapons, violence, terrorist, etc. from being able to get over so easily. This must happen immediately.

[wolf_chatter]

Do you think they have time to pull over everyone that looks Hispanic in any AZ city? Do you think police don't have a good idea who is legal and who is not? Heck, almost anyone that talks to someone for 20 seconds will probably have 90%+ accuracy in deciding if they are legal or illegal. Is it profiling? Certainly since they won't be asking Poles and Canadians if they are legal (assuming they could find a Polish or Canadian immigrant in AZ). But that doesn't mean it will be indiscriminate or harassing for Hispanics in general.

but it will happen sooner or later.

[justintime]

As a Arizona resident I do not believe there is anything wrong with the law if it is followed as written.
If I was arrested in any other country in the world I would be required to show my proof of citizenship and if I was there illegally I would be deported after facing the penalty of the crime. Not to compare or that we want to be like other countries but in some (Iran, North Korea, etc.) I would be locked up or killed.
If police start pulling over or harrasing people without reason then we are in trouble. I truly do not believe that this will happen.

Another bonus of this law is that at least the federal government is talking about it and maybe they will secure our border.
I also believe that border security and immigration are separate issues. The border must be secured to stop drugs, weapons, violence, terrorist, etc. from being able to get over so easily. This must happen immediately.

I won't disagree with the need to secure the border for reasons you mention, but as a S. Arizona resident, one who works outside in the border region, I have to say that I think physical border security is a virtual impossibility. The border is too long to be consistently patrolled. Walls cannot be high enough or deep enough (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2521094020070925) to stop a determined individual. Our border can never be better than semi-permeable.

As I said earlier in the thread, the real key to addressing border security is to address the cost-benefit calculus that makes it worthwhile to hide out in a safehouse in Matamoros for 2 weeks, give your entire life savings to a coyote that you've never met, risk drowning crossing a major waterway, sneak through a tunnel, evade detection for another 2 weeks while making your way north, and then pray that you can find a slaughterhouse job for $3.50/hr so you can live with 10 other people in a 1 bedroom apartment and send half the money back to your grandparents. Most of us wouldn't go to that level of risk for that return, and it's because we have easier, better options.

It astonishes me that we spend trillions on national defense when much of what we need to achieve with homeland security could be better addressed by investing in Central American economic development.

[Artic Wolf]

in order for a cop to ask you for it... the way it looks like in AZ is they can stop you and ask just because you look Hispanic even though you haven't done anything wrong. That's the problem.

geez.....the point has been made time and time again. The law clearly states that law enforcement cannot use racial profiling. You can't be pulled over just because you look Hispanic.....for "anyone" to be pulled over or questioned there has to be "probable cause"....plain and simple.

As for crossing over into a country illegally....how about the hikers that crossed over into Iran? Still in jail...it's been... over a year now that they have been held. What about the journalists that wandered into N. Korea....tried and sentenced to 12 yrs. in a labor camp....international pressure and probably a few behind the scenes deals got them released. Still, the situation in the US is not going to change until the Federal Govt. can secure the borders.

[Stuck in Seattle]

I won't disagree with the need to secure the border for reasons you mention, but as a S. Arizona resident, one who works outside in the border region, I have to say that I think physical border security is a virtual impossibility. The border is too long to be consistently patrolled. Walls cannot be high enough or deep enough (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2521094020070925) to stop a determined individual. Our border can never be better than semi-permeable.

As I said earlier in the thread, the real key to addressing border security is to address the cost-benefit calculus that makes it worthwhile to hide out in a safehouse in Matamoros for 2 weeks, give your entire life savings to a coyote that you've never met, risk drowning crossing a major waterway, sneak through a tunnel, evade detection for another 2 weeks while making your way north, and then pray that you can find a slaughterhouse job for $3.50/hr so you can live with 10 other people in a 1 bedroom apartment and send half the money back to your grandparents. Most of us wouldn't go to that level of risk for that return, and it's because we have easier, better options.

It astonishes me that we spend trillions on national defense when much of what we need to achieve with homeland security could be better addressed by investing in Central American economic development.
Just how would you go about that? How many hundreds of billions of dollars have been thrown down the money hole trying to do this in foreign countries already - and where are the successes?

Who wants to do this only to have some leftist sieze it for the government (then run it into the ground)?

South and Central America should get a clue and follow in Chile's footsteps. Third way reforms. They won't climb out of their holes by electing leftists promising to rescue the peasant by destroying industry and entrepreneurs. Without respect for private property, individual rights and the free market these nations are not worth the risk.

Finally, somebody is going to grow and smuggle coca no matter how much is dumped into what you suggest.

[justintime]

I'm certainly no specialist in the area of 3rd world economic development, and I do agree with the credo that US proxy states generally end badly. I like your Chilean model for development and concur that reform will have to happen organically and emphasize industry and capitalist free markets over socialism for the disenfranchised.

Perhaps it's misguided, naive,overly general, or all of the above, but it's clear to me that part of the reason they all move here is because it sucks so much there. If it didn't suck quite so much, then the level of risk the average person would be willing to take to make it here may finally drop below the threshold of what ICE can provide with Border Patrols and fences.

Would you advocate even more stringent militarization or infrastructure development along the border to keep illegals out? Manage the cost-benefit equation by greatly increasing the costs? Clearly there is some level at which you can nearly completely seal off a border, but I'm not sure it justifies the cost of doing so.

[Stuck in Seattle]

I'm certainly no specialist in the area of 3rd world economic development, and I do agree with the credo that US proxy states generally end badly. I like your Chilean model for development and concur that reform will have to happen organically and emphasize industry and capitalist free markets over socialism for the disenfranchised.

Perhaps it's misguided, naive,overly general, or all of the above, but it's clear to me that part of the reason they all move here is because it sucks so much there. If it didn't suck quite so much, then the level of risk the average person would be willing to take to make it here may finally drop below the threshold of what ICE can provide with Border Patrols and fences.

Would you advocate even more stringent militarization or infrastructure development along the border to keep illegals out? Manage the cost-benefit equation by greatly increasing the costs? Clearly there is some level at which you can nearly completely seal off a border, but I'm not sure it justifies the cost of doing so.
It would be near impossible to come close to completely sealing the border without spending a ton of money. But Israel has done it. I'm not sure it's worth it...though I would not want to be the US president if terrorists come over the Mexican border and succeed in killing thousands of citizens. Things will get quite ugly.

As I wrote before, one of the most unfortunate aspects of the immigration is that the money being sent back home keeps those corrupt states afloat. Most are so corrupt that I don't see how we can do much to help them. Any money we dump in is going to line the pockets of the rich. Their main opposition is leftists that would only take a bad situation and make it worse (ie Cuba and Venezuela). Of course, since the Honduras incident I tend to believe our current leader finds that to be the preferable course.

Sometimes there is no solution as beyond a certain level you can't help those that won't help themselves. We can only hope that as citizens see the success of a country like Chile they will demand the same reforms in their countries. Until they do, they get the government they deserve.

[justintime]

Some rough calculations reveal that Israel has about 1/4 the length of non-maritime border that the US has with Mexico. Add to that some incredibly harsh terrain, and I'm sure the cost of total security increases exponentially.

In the 80's and 90's, US border policy focused on shutting down migration routes through border cities like Tijuana-San Diego, Juarez-El Paso and Brownsville-Matamoros and attempted to funnel most of the immigration through the rugged terrain in NM and AZ, figuring that geologic barriers would help secure the border. As anyone who's hiked in the Huachucas or near Organ Pipe will tell you, they only made it harder on themselves to enforce and underestimated the resourcefulness and desperation driving this migration.

[Stuck in Seattle]

Some rough calculations reveal that Israel has about 1/4 the length of non-maritime border that the US has with Mexico. Add to that some incredibly harsh terrain, and I'm sure the cost of total security increases exponentially.

In the 80's and 90's, US border policy focused on shutting down migration routes through border cities like Tijuana-San Diego, Juarez-El Paso and Brownsville-Matamoros and attempted to funnel most of the immigration through the rugged terrain in NM and AZ, figuring that geologic barriers would help secure the border. As anyone who's hiked in the Huachucas or near Organ Pipe will tell you, they only made it harder on themselves to enforce and underestimated the resourcefulness and desperation driving this migration.
Israel certainly has less than 1/4 the resources of the US for an apples to apples comparison. But as they can use their military to staff the border. And since they don't have them spread out over the rest of the world they wouldn't incur the added expenses we would. But I don't think we can expect to completely fence and staff the entire border. I'd make it a lot easier. Just let them in if they give fingerprints and dna, get an SS card, and consent to obey the laws, keep a job, learn English and always let INS know where you are living. I want lots of immigration.

But at some point we will suffer a terror attack from someone that entered through that border and people will cease being rational about it for a couple of years. A fence might be inevitable.

[student4ever]

You're actually trying to find logic in this mess? I think it's mostly just cynical politics. Nobody will care about it in 2 months if AZ doesn't cave on the whole thing.

Agree about the cynical politics, but haven't all politics become cynical. I just don't see the potential problems being all that realistic. No cop is going to stop someone on the street randomly and ask for their papers. The cops know that they're going to be under some severe scrutiny with this law and aren't going pull over every hispanic they see, because the first time they ask someone for papers without that person having committed some other crime first, they will be in the middle of a harassment lawsuit.

[NevadaConvert]

in order for a cop to ask you for it... the way it looks like in AZ is they can stop you and ask just because you look Hispanic even though you haven't done anything wrong. That's the problem.

That's the propoganda you're hearing from the activists. That is not what's in the law. They have to have PC to stop you and it can't be done based on race (it's actually in the law stating that), and then their also must be PC to run the person through ICE after they're stopped...say if the person gave him a fake ID, didn't have one and didn't speak a lick of English, etc.

[BustNChops]

1) The law is not enacted. It has been passed and continues to see modifications.

2) As a White Male, I am more scrutinized than the illegal. I am required to carry documentation in my vehicle showing my drivers license, proof of registration and insurance. The illegal - nothing. More often than not, illegals are let go for their minor violation/crime as the police/sheriffs have not way to deal with them. Write the ticket to who? Arrest them and put them in what cell? What bed? Who is going to deport them?

3) This is a federal issue and AZ (as a result of the sheriffs/chiefs along the border) created this law, much of which is federal law but not followed. This is a shot across the bow at federal representatives to get something done.

The federal government needs to do something. Their inaction is harming law abiding citizens and if nothing done it will get even worse. I have nothing against those who came here to work, are good citizens, are learning English and are contributing. To the other "50%" - I do have an issue.

[student4ever]

Why is learning english always thrown in there with the hard work and good citizens? Just curious. I don't see it as a necessity to qualify one for legitimately being in the country.

[BustNChops]

Why is learning english always thrown in there with the hard work and good citizens? Just curious. I don't see it as a necessity to qualify one for legitimately being in the country.

Simple - assimilate.

[student4ever]

Simple - assimilate.

I do think it's important for them to learn english, but that's more for their own sake than anything to do with being a productive member of United States.

I speak enough spanish to get by and think that those of us who are natural english speakers need to make ourselves more able to communicate with those entering our country and welcome them as well. In other words, I think both cultures should work toward making the other more comfortable.

Its just always bothered me that people assume if you can't speak english, you aren't a productive member of society.

[Stuck in Seattle]

I do think it's important for them to learn english, but that's more for their own sake than anything to do with being a productive member of United States.

I speak enough spanish to get by and think that those of us who are natural english speakers need to make ourselves more able to communicate with those entering our country and welcome them as well. In other words, I think both cultures should work toward making the other more comfortable.

Its just always bothered me that people assume if you can't speak english, you aren't a productive member of society.
That's your assumption not my position. They can be productive without learning English. But learning the language is part of the culture and improves chances of success. Generally the second generation will speak English anyway and the third generation will possibly not speak Spanish at all, so the point may be moot I'll admit. As long as the schools teach in English it's not a major problem with me.

[student4ever]

That's your assumption not my position. They can be productive without learning English. But learning the language is part of the culture and improves chances of success. Generally the second generation will speak English anyway and the third generation will possibly not speak Spanish at all, so the point may be moot I'll admit. As long as the schools teach in English it's not a major problem with me.

That may not be your position, but it certainly is quite a common position from what I've seen, including my own family reunions.

I agree with most of your post after that. I don't have a problem with schools teaching in both languages and would love for my kids (if I had any) to learn in both languages from kindergarten on. Heck, if they could learn Mandarin and Arabic or any other languages while they were at it, I'd be all for that too.

[Stuck in Seattle]

That may not be your position, but it certainly is quite a common position from what I've seen, including my own family reunions.

I agree with most of your post after that. I don't have a problem with schools teaching in both languages and would love for my kids (if I had any) to learn in both languages from kindergarten on. Heck, if they could learn Mandarin and Arabic or any other languages while they were at it, I'd be all for that too.
I think learning a second language is great, though growing less necessary as English becomes the language of business. The earlier they teach it the better. But what I don't want is a defacto second official language that becomes a regionally dominant replacement for English. At some point the country would begin to splinter.

Hence, no teaching in any language other than English except for elective foreign language classes. And maybe ESL.

[mustangs05]

It isn't like if the law is going to get rid of every illegal in Arizona. Yea, they might send a few thousand back to Mexico but they will only find there way back a few weeks or months later. The only way to fix the problem is just make it easier for them to get papers to come here and work legally and pay taxes. That is the only way its going to fix. There is no way we are going to get rid of all the illegals in the United States right now with a law like the one Arizona just made.

[Nosebleed]

That may not be your position, but it certainly is quite a common position from what I've seen, including my own family reunions.

I agree with most of your post after that. I don't have a problem with schools teaching in both languages and would love for my kids (if I had any) to learn in both languages from kindergarten on. Heck, if they could learn Mandarin and Arabic or any other languages while they were at it, I'd be all for that too.

But if they don't have a command of English, then they will have very few opportunities other than basic minimal jobs. I believe to be allowed legal immigration, then the applicant should prepare themselves by learning the language to give them the best possible opportunity to be granted permission.

I believe the US must control the number of immigrants allowed into the country. For security's sake we need to know the character of those allowed in. I know the character of those of us already here is in some cases very questionable, but that is another discussion.

In my opinion, illegal immigrants should be escorted to the nearest border crossing and set free.

Rick

[Stuck in Seattle]

It isn't like if the law is going to get rid of every illegal in Arizona. Yea, they might send a few thousand back to Mexico but they will only find there way back a few weeks or months later. The only way to fix the problem is just make it easier for them to get papers to come here and work legally and pay taxes. That is the only way its going to fix. There is no way we are going to get rid of all the illegals in the United States right now with a law like the one Arizona just made.
I wish we could keep most of the illegals in trade for a lot of people that are already citizens.

[Stuck in Seattle]

More from our enlightened professional educators:

Five Morgan Hill students sent home for wearing American flag T-shirts (http://www.gilroydispatch.com/news/265404-five-morgan-hill-students-sent-home-for-wearing-american-flag-t-shirts)

Five Live Oak High School students' First Amendment rights were challenged this morning when they were asked to leave school because they donned American flag T-shirts on Cinco de Mayo. Officials at the school chose not to comment on the situation, but one student said an official called the T-shirts "incendiary."

"They said we were starting a fight, we were fuel to the fire," said sophomore Matt Dariano.The five teens were sitting at a table outside during their brunch break about 10:10 a.m. when Assistant Principal Miguel Rodriguez asked two boys to take off their American flag bandannas. The boys said they complied. In the same conversation, sophomore Dominic Maciel said, Rodriguez told the group to "walk with him to the office."


[...]


Dariano called his mother Diana, who spread the word to the other parents, who all arrived soon after to have a conference with Rodriguez and Principal Nick Boden. The group said they were not instigating anything and did what they always do at break - sit and talk and eat.


The boys were told they must turn their T-shirts inside-out or be sent home - and that it would not be considered a suspension - but that Rodriguez did not want any fights to break out among Mexican-American students and those wearing American flags. Dariano said other students were wearing American flags but since they were a group of five "we were the easiest target to cause trouble" according to Rodriguez, he said.




The boys told Rodriguez and Boden that turning their T-shirts inside-out was disrespectful, so their parents opted to take them home.
"I just couldn't believe it," said Dominic's mother Julie Fagerstrom. "I'm an open-minded parent, but it's got to be on both sides. It can't be five kids singled out."


A front-desk secretary said Boden was unavailable for any comment on what had happened Wednesday and Rodriguez was busy with testing, the secretary said.




More than 100 students were spotted wearing red, white and green as they were leaving school. Some had the Mexican flag painted on their faces or on their arms.


So, in this California school about 25 miles from San Jose you CAN'T wear the US flag on May 5th but you CAN wear the Mexican flag. What's up with that? I'd allow both. Who cares if someone wears Irish colors on St. Patrick's day or Italian flags on Columbus day, or Mexican flags on Cinco de Mayo? But also, why should anyone be under threat for wearing the US colors on any day in any US school?

[student4ever]

I find american flag clothing to be disrespectful to the flag. I could care less if other countries' flags are on clothing, but I like the american flag and don't think it belongs on clothing of any kind, ever.

[Stuck in Seattle]

I find american flag clothing to be disrespectful to the flag. I could care less if other countries' flags are on clothing, but I like the american flag and don't think it belongs on clothing of any kind, ever.
A non sequitur on which we disagree...

http://www.beachesandbikinis.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/american-flag-crochet-bikini-300x300.jpg

[student4ever]

A non sequitur on which we disagree...

http://www.beachesandbikinis.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/american-flag-crochet-bikini-300x300.jpg

I think we can both agree that she needs to take that flag off right this instant.

[Stuck in Seattle]

I think we can both agree that she needs to take that flag off right this instant.
+1.
lol

still hating the 10 character limit, doggone it!

[PackNation]

I wish we could keep most of the illegals in trade for a lot of people that are already citizens.

I hope you weren't referring to Frank. He's a keeper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Au_8GMUxVs&feature=player_embedded

[Stuck in Seattle]

I hope you weren't referring to Frank. He's a keeper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Au_8GMUxVs&feature=player_embedded
Frank is not that pale. Or that coordinated.