Small government conservatives ought to....

[Nevadan]

...just be tickled with the significant reduction of the breadth and depth of state and local government. Shite, if it weren't for the fact that the fed is growing and the whole economy is sucking pond water, it would be party time for the GOP!

[Stuck in Seattle]

...just be tickled with the significant reduction of the breadth and depth of state and local government. Shite, if it weren't for the fact that the fed is growing and the whole economy is sucking pond water, it would be party time for the GOP!
Nobody wants high unemployment, flailing pensions and 401ks and falling property values.

But then I'm not a traditional small government type.

[battle.borne]

...just be tickled with the significant reduction of the breadth and depth of state and local government. Shite, if it weren't for the fact that the fed is growing and the whole economy is sucking pond water, it would be party time for the GOP!

I take pride in the fact Nevada has the leanest state government in America. But like SIS said, 12% unemployment and sliding real estate values have a way of dampening the mood. :rolleyes:

[jwolfpack]

I take pride in the fact Nevada has the leanest state government in America. But like SIS said, 12% unemployment and sliding real estate values have a way of dampening the mood. :rolleyes:

it is nice to know that our state gov is pretty efficient....as far as government goes....keep in mind, government is an industry also....just like gaming or manufacturing or the service industry....it employs people who go out to eat, donate to the basketball program, go to an aces game, go into starbucks and get a $4 coffee, buy a car, make a mortgage payment, go skiing. If you own a business, chances are public employees help you make a living. Their employment means jobs for other industries.

and lets not even consider that our low spending in education has nothing to do with the fact that Nevada may now be dead last in the country in regards to quality of education. Is throwing money at ed the answer, probably not, but starving it certainly isnt helping. Are teachers overpaid? good question...maybe... how many skilled, caring and qualified people do you know would work for something just above the poverty line....probably not many, so it make sense to pay them a reasonable wage.

So lets just keep cutting....who needs a DMV to make sure people can pass a driving test before putting them behind a 1/2 ton bullet. Who needs a dept of insurance to make sure everyone is insured so when that 1/2 bullet plows into your car there is money somewhere to pay for your wheelchair. How bout we just cut health and human services so the person driving that 1/2 ton bullet has no meds to keep him from going Kirk synder on us....certainly cant lock him up because that cost taxpayer money.

this country is in the middle of the mother of all pickles. The Biggest catch 22 in the history of mankind......This country let housing markets and gas prices drive up the cost of living way too much. It wasnt sustainable and we all knew it 5 years ago before it collasped

The city of reno is trying to renegotiate wage contracts, reduce everyones pay by 20%, food price are coming down right? power and water and sewer bills are being reduced by 20%. Mortgages are reduced 20%. Health care cost are being reduced by 20% right?

Wonder how many of those public employees managed to hang on to thier homes because they had a reasonable paying job....let see how many of them lose those homes, because another forclosed property is going to help the economy recover.....its not going to affect the value of my home right?...and another cheap ass home on the market is going to keep a construction worker employed and home depot is going to thrive with all the people spending money to fix up a yard for a home that may never again be worth what they bought it for.

Fellas.....I think we all need to realize that we may need to dig a hole to get out of the hole...think about it, either way we are going to end up supporting these people who lost their jobs, either by using our tax money to fund unemployement checks or some other social program. Laying them off just shifts them to a different budget....... all paid by taxpayers (or future taxpayers)....and if we cut those social program off, then they will be forced to survive by whatever mean necessary....and thats really not a good thing...especially since that new round of layoffs is bound to include police.

[Posturedoc]

it is nice to know that our state gov is pretty efficient....as far as government goes....keep in mind, government is an industry also....just like gaming or manufacturing or the service industry....it employs people who go out to eat, donate to the basketball program, go to an aces game, go into starbucks and get a $4 coffee, buy a car, make a mortgage payment, go skiing. If you own a business, chances are public employees help you make a living. Their employment means jobs for other industries.

and lets not even consider that our low spending in education has nothing to do with the fact that Nevada may now be dead last in the country in regards to quality of education. Is throwing money at ed the answer, probably not, but starving it certainly isnt helping. Are teachers overpaid? good question...maybe... how many skilled, caring and qualified people do you know would work for something just above the poverty line....probably not many, so it make sense to pay them a reasonable wage.

So lets just keep cutting....who needs a DMV to make sure people can pass a driving test before putting them behind a 1/2 ton bullet. Who needs a dept of insurance to make sure everyone is insured so when that 1/2 bullet plows into your car there is money somewhere to pay for your wheelchair. How bout we just cut health and human services so the person driving that 1/2 ton bullet has no meds to keep him from going Kirk synder on us....certainly cant lock him up because that cost taxpayer money.

this country is in the middle of the mother of all pickles. The Biggest catch 22 in the history of mankind......This country let housing markets and gas prices drive up the cost of living way too much. It wasnt sustainable and we all knew it 5 years ago before it collasped

The city of reno is trying to renegotiate wage contracts, reduce everyones pay by 20%, food price are coming down right? power and water and sewer bills are being reduced by 20%. Mortgages are reduced 20%. Health care cost are being reduced by 20% right?

Wonder how many of those public employees managed to hang on to thier homes because they had a reasonable paying job....let see how many of them lose those homes, because another forclosed property is going to help the economy recover.....its not going to affect the value of my home right?...and another cheap ass home on the market is going to keep a construction worker employed and home depot is going to thrive with all the people spending money to fix up a yard for a home that may never again be worth what they bought it for.

Fellas.....I think we all need to realize that we may need to dig a hole to get out of the hole...think about it, either way we are going to end up supporting these people who lost their jobs, either by using our tax money to fund unemployement checks or some other social program. Laying them off just shifts them to a different budget....... all paid by taxpayers (or future taxpayers)....and if we cut those social program off, then they will be forced to survive by whatever mean necessary....and thats really not a good thing...especially since that new round of layoffs is bound to include police.

"Applause!"

Very well stated, jw.

[ord_buckeye]

I take pride in the fact Nevada has the leanest state government in America.

And how has that mentality effected the University of Nevada over the decades? Just saying.

[BustNChops]

"Applause!"

Very well stated, jw.

Well stated... but the biggest part is being the catch 22. I agree with what you say, but at the same time I disagree. We need our government workers - agree. We need to dig a hole to get out of the hole - somewhat.

Too many people want to have their cake and eat it too. It doesn't work.

As for the City of Reno workers - fire them all! Then hire them back at 80% of what they made. If they don't want there job, then someone else will. I know Las Vegas was looking at this option, but I don't know what the City lawyers determined. Or if needed, declare BK and throw all Union contracts out the window. Just bite the bullet today so we can move forward to a stronger future.

Government (City/State/Federal) has gotten out of control. While Nevada may be small in numbers, the salary + PERS isn't. + the amount of entitlement and social programs is out of wack (from a welfare state to unions). It wasn't and isn't sustainable. For that reason alone, I'm ok with some of the struggles. I'm 33 and have time to recover. The road we were headed down was off a cliff. Like you, I just hope the fixes being put in place don't take us off a different cliff.

I hate seeing the pain this economic dive is causing. But, I do think it was/is necessary to get back to better balance.

[Stuck in Seattle]

Just go to defined contribution pension plans and keep state/city/county wages competitive with the rest of the economy and we'd be going in the right direction. They don't need to lay off workers when they could cut pay and benefits by 10% or more and keep everyone working. That's impossible thanks to public employee unions. That would be what benefits the majority, but it's not about that and I'll keep pounding the same point. The losses in the private sector absolutely dwarf those in the public sector, yet for many of you the answer seems to be "squeeze more from the private sector".

Government workers are NOT what drive a vibrant economy. Taxes past the level of basic services do NOT increase entrepreneurship, investment, employment and productivity. Government is supposed to facilitate the private sector not the opposite. Doing thing now that make it more difficult to grow private industry or even sustain what we have is not the solution to our problems.

[BustNChops]

From the Northern Nevada Business Weekly - daily update:

Personal income falls: Personal income in Nevada fell by 4.8 percent during 2009, the largest decline of any state. Workers' earnings fell by 7.6 percent, rents, interest and dividends fell by 9.3 percent, and payments from government - for unemployment and the like - rose by nearly 20 percent, the federal Bureau of Economic Analysis says.

[jwolfpack]

While Nevada may be small in numbers, the salary + PERS isn't. + the amount of entitlement .

I dont know which salaries and entitlements you are refering to. If you're cherry picking the RGJ database from a year ago then maybe you aught to call those people and ask them what they do and what they had to do to get to the position that have. Work a day in thier jobs and I would think you would find that you're not going to learn it after a two hour orientation. Some of those positions require years of experince and education...the same position in the private sector would demand as much and probably pay more.

I dont think there are that many state employees getting rich....Dont we want good capable people working in and running governement agencies? You think these kind of people come cheap? If you think our governor is appointing morons to these appointed high paying posts then dont vote your governor back

or perhaps we should pay public employees crap and then wonder why our police/fire/gov agencies dont work very good. Everybody is quick to bash a fire fighter who is making 80 grand a year until their house is burning and that guy save thier life.

nobody has a problem with a private sector manager who spent 6 years in college, worked up the ladder, and then works 16 hours a day in order to make a really healthy income, but most people will have major problems with a public employee did the same thing.

and i dont have PERS statistics to refer to....so maybe you're right .I would hope you have some stats to prove that state/public employees are getting rich

Get tired of people bashing public employees and programs with offering specifics. What is out of Wack? The military is a social program, is that out of Wack?


[QUOTE But, I do think it was/is necessary to get back to better balance.[/QUOTE]

I'd be fine with going back with year 2000 salaries if gassoline, utlities, groceries roll back thier prices and the back refinanced my house to what it would have cost in the year 2000.

All you are doing with layoffs if putting more people on the taxpayer dime

and all you are doing with salary cuts is taking discretionary money away those people use to support local busnisesses....forget the $15 a plate local eatery for a night out, they will go to mcds who does pay crap and buy a 99cent cheeseburger

[BustNChops]

I dont know which salaries and entitlements you are refering to. If you're cherry picking the RGJ database from a year ago then maybe you aught to call those people and ask them what they do and what they had to do to get to the position that have. Work a day in thier jobs and I would think you would find that you're not going to learn it after a two hour orientation. Some of those positions require years of experince and education...the same position in the private sector would demand as much and probably pay more.
As a whole - salaries for city/state workers are lower than private, I would agree with your with the position that they are not overpaid on that alone. However, once you had in the PERS then that is where paths cross.

I dont think there are that many state employees getting rich....Dont we want good capable people working in and running governement agencies? You think these kind of people come cheap? If you think our governor is appointing morons to these appointed high paying posts then dont vote your governor back
I have no ax to grind with the governor. I'm on his side more than I am not. You are talking about the top level. We also have hundreds / thousands of "indians" doing the work. Yes, we need good people. But we don't have to give them cost of living every year + raises + PERS + x and y. Make it competitive with private sector. No need to make it better than.

or perhaps we should pay public employees crap and then wonder why our police/fire/gov agencies dont work very good. Everybody is quick to bash a fire fighter who is making 80 grand a year until their house is burning and that guy save thier life.
Wrong. I'd rather have my house burn down. I do want them for medical though! But, it isn't about bashing a firefighter. A very good friend of mine is a firefighter. He has lost touch with reality as has many of his brothers. They have a fantastic profession. Just enjoy it and don't talk about how much you are cutting. Forgoing a raise and cost of living or clothes cleaning is not the same as a net cut in pay today at 10%. "Stealing" from tax payers by playing the sickday game and dbling your pay + PERS for that shift is not ok.

nobody has a problem with a private sector manager who spent 6 years in college, worked up the ladder, and then works 16 hours a day in order to make a really healthy income, but most people will have major problems with a public employee did the same thing.
No idea where that came from.

and i dont have PERS statistics to refer to....so maybe you're right .I would hope you have some stats to prove that state/public employees are getting rich
They aren't getting rich. But they aren' necessarily earning it either. It shouldn't be taken away - but it doesn't have to be generous either. I have enough friends that work for the city, state and are police and fire... They readily admit they have it easy on that front. I made a choice to not work in the public sector. That was my decision. Those that did and get this benefit - great for them. I can't fault them. However, the combination of these things have been taking city after city off a cliff. It is time to tighten belts and re-do ALL contracts and this PERS are just one (just one) piece of the puzzle.

Get tired of people bashing public employees and programs with offering specifics. What is out of Wack? The military is a social program, is that out of Wack?
Not bashing public employees. Just a simple discussion. I like my security... so I will say no - military spending is not out of wack. But, there are probably billions of poorly spent money.

[QUOTE But, I do think it was/is necessary to get back to better balance.[/QUOTE]

I'd be fine with going back with year 2000 salaries if gassoline, utlities, groceries roll back thier prices and the back refinanced my house to what it would have cost in the year 2000.
100%... I understand what you are saying.

All you are doing with layoffs if putting more people on the taxpayer dime
That is what drives me up the wall. Why do we need layoffs at city/state jobs? Why do we need furlough days? Just cut the pay 5 - 10 - 15 - 20% and share the pain and call it a day. Move on.

and all you are doing with salary cuts is taking discretionary money away those people use to support local busnisesses....forget the $15 a plate local eatery for a night out, they will go to mcds who does pay crap and buy a 99cent cheeseburger
I don't give a $hit. I lost 55%+/- of my salary in the private sector. It forced me to short sale my home (a house I physically built). Cry me a river. Cut salaries and move one. My life has changed and my discretionary spending has changed. I don't care if it forced 100% of the city/state workers to change either. The private sector does not need to pay a single dime more in taxes so that city/state workers can retain their discretionary spending! We need government - but they are not the engine that drives this nation.

===========================

Some provoking thoughts... so thanks. Wasn't trying to be hostile in any responses. All written with positive intentions.

[Paw]

Edit: Nada

[Stuck in Seattle]

The average fireman might make $80k in wages...but I bet it's significantly higher with OT. The problem is unsustainable pension plans combined with wages that puts their compensation well over $100k or more than twice what an average FAMILY (not individual) makes in the state. The article in the RGJ I read a while back said Vegas firemen were making $135k with many over $200k. Much of that was based on Vegas, but that's insanity. There are signs from across the country that public pensions are unsustainable at current levels and almost universally underfunded meaning the big tax hikes are backloaded to hit us down the road. It is not going to be a pretty situation.

If we want to pay healthy pensions...fine. Or great wages...fine. Not both.

[battle.borne]

And how has that mentality effected the University of Nevada over the decades? Just saying.

Nevadans are fiercely independent and distrustful of governments in general, on both sides of the political aisle. I don't know what that means in regards to the U but the Alums I talk with are proud of their alma mater, and proud that its been ble to thrive despite not receiving boatloads of cheddar from the state coffers.

[BustNChops]

A number I'm interested in verifying... I was told this weekend that 75% of the City of Reno's budget goes to fire & police. If that is in fact true, then it does not matter what any other city department does, the ball (the control) is in their court. I have a few emails out to try and verify this number. Anybody else have a source to bounce that off of?

[Stuck in Seattle]

A number I'm interested in verifying... I was told this weekend that 75% of the City of Reno's budget goes to fire & police. If that is in fact true, then it does not matter what any other city department does, the ball (the control) is in their court. I have a few emails out to try and verify this number. Anybody else have a source to bounce that off of?
That was the approximate percentage of Vallejo's budget going to those two services before the city went belly up so it's possible, but I think that's probably a little high. I do know that Reno PD is extremely well compensated compared to similar cities and I suspect the same for the fire department. On second thought, it might be 75% as Reno property taxes aren't all that high...at least they're about 25% lower than up here based on what I've seen.

Here's an old article about Vallejo (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703625304575115551578762006.html):

Vallejo is a Bay Area community of 121,000 that two years ago became the state's largest city to declare bankruptcy. Like other municipalities, its public-sector unions had driven its budget deep into the red. A report issued by the Cato Institute last September noted that 74% of the city's general budget was eaten up by police and firefighter salaries and overtime along with pension obligations. The average city in the state spends 60% of its budget on those things.

The study also found that lavish pay and benefit packages were a root cause of the city's problems. In Vallejo compensation packages for police captains top $300,000 a year and average $171,000 a year for firefighters. Regular public employees in the city can retire at age 55 with 81% of their final year's pay guaranteed. Police and fire officials can retire at age 50 with a pension that pays them 90% of their final year's salary every year for life and the lives of their spouses.

[shewolf11]

I am in love with the state of Nevada and the University of Nevada. It will always be home and my beloved Alma Mater no matter where I end up in this world. It's a shame the drug dealer in my neighborhood has a higher approval rating than our Governor. He has shamed my state and my dear college.

[renowiggum]

A number I'm interested in verifying... I was told this weekend that 75% of the City of Reno's budget goes to fire & police. If that is in fact true, then it does not matter what any other city department does, the ball (the control) is in their court. I have a few emails out to try and verify this number. Anybody else have a source to bounce that off of?

The city of Reno budget is posted on the city website, at http://www.cityofreno.com

The Budget page is here: http://www.cityofreno.com/index.aspx?page=171

And after looking at it, the number appears way, way, way off. Looks like police and fire are each about 12-15%. They are by far the largest individual Expense areas outside of "Public Works" and "Non-Departmental" but they aren't even half of the 75% figure. Excluding the two largest items, police and fire together still only represent about 50% of the remaining budget.

[student4ever]

The city of Reno budget is posted on the city website, at http://www.cityofreno.com

The Budget page is here: http://www.cityofreno.com/index.aspx?page=171

And after looking at it, the number appears way, way, way off. Looks like police and fire are each about 12-15%. They are by far the largest individual Expense areas outside of "Public Works" and "Non-Departmental" but they aren't even half of the 75% figure. Excluding the two largest items, police and fire together still only represent about 50% of the remaining budget.

I'll be honest, I didn't look at the links. Is salary separated out from other operating expenses? My guess is that the 75% number is overstated when it comes to fire and police as units, but perhaps not when you consider only salary. If I'm off base, no problem.

[renowiggum]

I'll be honest, I didn't look at the links. Is salary separated out from other operating expenses? My guess is that the 75% number is overstated when it comes to fire and police as units, but perhaps not when you consider only salary. If I'm off base, no problem.

There's actually a lot of detail in the budget, but these are from the summary. You could probably figure out salary, but really, I don't know that I would expect it to change much. Salary is a huge expense everywhere, and if anything I could see some merit to someone saying that, as a % of its department budget, P/F salary costs are a smaller share of the budget than other departments, due to the additional specialized equipment and B&G demands of police and fire relative to a generic office staff.

Pure speculation of course. I simply meant to give people the tools to research their questions, as I'm not really interested enough to do the research myself beyond a cursory examination of it.

[Stuck in Seattle]

Avg Salary and Benefits (using Full Time Eequivalents) for

Reno PD $118,553

Fire Dept $127,123

And pensions are almost certainly underfunded meaning expenses are likely backloaded. Benefit expenses run a little over 40% of salary expenses. For Reno PD that's about $39k per year per employee just for benefits.

[Stuck in Seattle]

What? No comments about benefits alone for these city workers being $10,000 a year higher than Reno's per capita average income? Or that it's equal to 75% of the average household income for the city of Reno?

[BustNChops]

So here is the response I got from the City of Reno to my question. I pulled together some of the feedback from others here:


Question:

I am trying to verify a number I heard over the weekend. During a conversation about the City and our budget crisis, I was given an interesting number by a City of Reno employee and a higher ranking fire fighter that was there did not know the answer. I was told that 75% of the City of Reno's budget goes to fire & police. If that is in fact true, then it does not matter what any other city department does. The control of the City rests with these two. It was a frightening fact and reminiscent of Vallejo. There were roughly 5 people involved in the conversation and I took it upon myself to find the answer and report back to them.

Someone reviewed the budget page @ http://www.cityofreno.com/index.aspx?page=171. Their take was the "75% appears way off. It appears that police and fire are each about 12-15%. They are by far the largest individual Expense areas outside of "Public Works" and "Non-Departmental" but they aren't even half of the 75% figure. Excluding the two largest items, police and fire together still only represent about 50% of the remaining budget. Not being involved with the day to day of the budget, it can be difficult to read. I have a hard time no believing the individual that provided that number and wanted to know what I am missing.

I am interested if you have any numbers that you can share with me regarding the true and complete cost of fire and police to the City of Reno (standard pay, over time, PERS, and other misc.) - as a whole and as a percentage of total.

I know this is not a standard request and appreciate your time and assistance. If you can not help me, can you point me to someone who can?



Answer:

Sorry for the delay in response. We just received a response from our Finance Department on this. Here is what they said:
Using the adopted FY 09/10 budget, Public Safety (Police, Fire and Dispatch) makes up for 65% of the General Fund Operating Budget (total of $116.6 million). The total operating budget for the General Fund was $180.1 million. It's important that this number be used when calculating their percentage, since all other funds are restricted and are not used for these services. The individual below must be using the City's total budget (all funds), which would not be a true reflection of the public safety share of our general funds (the funds used for public safety operations).
I don't have the final revised numbers for public safety for FY 09/10 and FY 10/11, but with the other departments taking larger reductions than public safety, the percentage could be, and is likely to be, a bit higher than 65%. We should have those proposed numbers by the time we go to the Council budget workshop.

[renowiggum]

I'm glad to see some more details on that - it's definitely interesting, and shows what a crunch the budget is really in.

Though perhaps another means to address the question is "what can be done to free up the non-General funding that is taking place?" If there's a huge share of committed funds, then is there any way to free up those funds? If not, why not (state law? local ordinance?)

Thanks for following up, though.

[wolf_chatter]

What? No comments about benefits alone for these city workers being $10,000 a year higher than Reno's per capita average income? Or that it's equal to 75% of the average household income for the city of Reno?

anything. They put their asses on the line every time they go into work.. well the rank and file anyway... not management. I do however wish the retirement was on them and not us.